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  • One of the most disturbing aspects of Werewolf: The Apocalypse is the treatment of Kinfolk, humans who can't shapeshift but carry the recessive gene, meaning their children possibly might be able to. Obviously, werewolf-kinfolk pairings have a greater chance of bearing shapeshifters than either of them getting it on with a Muggle, but the Garou's treatment of Kinfolk borders on arranged marriage at best and rape at worst. It doesn't seem to matter if the kin has other plans, her only purpose in life is to make babies. Perhaps my least-favorite aspect of the game.
    • Speaking as a Hunter: the Reckoning fan, this troper thinks the treatment of kinfolk -- and the way Werewolf reproduction works in general -- is the single biggest black mark against Werewolves being the good guys of the Wo D that they present themselves as, and the single biggest justification for an Imbued slapping some silver shells in his shotgun and going hunting.
      • yeah, cause some mild second class citizen status of their kin is the worst thing they've done... not the culling of humanity, or the extinction they've perpetrated on three different changing breeds that we know of, or the attempted genocide of all the other changing breeds... or all the shit spirals do... I'm not saying I don't like the wolves, I love 'em, but if your looking for petty justification of murder... there's much better things to look at.
        • Seconded. (Also, petty? None of the above reasons sound petty, really.) It's likely that the imbued had no idea about the extinctions/genocides; with their limited interaction and concern for humanity, the only things core hunters seemed to know was the anti-human outlook and the forced mating. This Troper seems to recall at least one example in the Hunter books where the imbued encountered a Kinfolk woman fleeing from her intended husband, obviously terrified and desperate not to go with him; the imbued, if I recall, got their asses kicked pretty well trying to defend her, but I think they managed to bring him down. Since that and the whole 'killing humans is good' thing makes up almost all of the imbued's interactions with the shapeshifters, it's understandable what they'd focus on. After all, the hunter mission-statement is to stop humanity as a whole from being treated as second-class or worse by all the supernaturals.
        • I should point out that A) Even as a Hunter fan, most of the established Zeal creed hunters were bigots who killed the supernatural soley because they weren't human, B) that the Garou were fighting to stop the destruction of all of reality, which is why they're considered the good guys in the same vein that the Tau can be considered the good guys of 40k because they were the only ones who weren't complete monsters.
        • The Technocracy was also fighting to save reality, with the added bonus of not killing off Humanity while they're at it. Yet they were generally considered villains. And in any case, you can't say the bigoted hunters didn't have understandable cause: Most of them lost their families to supernatural threats, and a fair number of them were proven right (though their tendency to kill people to end disagreements was really not the smart way to do business).
        • Probably the only unambiguously good faction are the Mummy: the Resurrection mummies ... which are basically completely off-genre to the rest of the World of Darkness and are more like magical superheroes.
    • Incidentally, you should recall that with the way the Old WoD, gamelines weren't exactly 100% crossover-compliant; several Hunter books, including the Storyteller's Guide, noted that unless the GM had specific plans the werewolves of the Hunter-verse were not Garou-- They were just werewolves who might have shared some traits with the Garou, but for all intents and purposes were simply monsters for the imbued to combat.
      • It was more like the werewolves were not Garou if the Storyteller wanted them not to be. The actual Hunter sourcebook for the Werewolves (The Moonstruck) had several stories with Hunters and Werewolves that were clearly Garou if you knew Werewolf: The Apocalypse. One could easily identify Red Talons, Black Spirals, even one of the Bastet.
      • I seem to recall reading someplace that the designers felt the only unambiguous hero race in oWoD were the resurrected Mummies from Revised. They were genuinely trying to help save the world, and didn't have any of that pesky gray on gray morality going on. The only mark against them was they were a bit alien in their reasoning and very patient.
      • Also, the Sefeki (Unbandaged Ones) were assholes, but that was comparatively minor. I think that's why I liked the mummies so much (only one sourcebook? A sad panda is me...).
        • Ironically, this might be why this troper's group found the Mummy line boring. Then again, we're all thwarted dramatists at heart...
    • On the treatment of Kinfolk: Yeah, it sucks. Even some of the Garou recognise that, especially in the Tribebooks. But it's also arguably needed, as the Garou need all the forces they can get. This is the World of Darkness. Things are shitty all over.
      • There's also the alternative of not keeping them on a tight leash; risk losing them to the Spirals. Who would either drive them insane to work for them or lock them up as actual breeding mares. So it boils down to "be treated like slaves by people who at heart have good intentions" or "be prisoners of a massive death cult and horrifically abused for the entirity of your lifespan, and afterwads your soul gets to go Malfaes where you'll get to be stuck with those guys forever."
      • It's worth noting that this is deliberate; the werewolves are not good guys. This Troper used to work on the line, and we were all very aware that the werewolves were the gray in a Black and Gray Morality world. It's also not exactly subtle: The War of Rage, the extinction of the Bunyip and the overwhelming sense that the Garou could end the threat of the Apocalypse with ease if they'd just friggin' work with each other for a day suggests that. And as proof of the inverse, note that the Dies Ultimae camp in Revised Glass Walker suggested the main reason for their rise to power was that they were one of the few to treat kinfolk right.
      • Also the Kinfolk get a much better deal than most half supernaturals in the setting. Compare and contrast with the Ghouls and the Thralls that are mostly addicts controlled by their dealers. The Kinain are sometimes treated very well and are usually ignored, but Dana help you if a bored Redcap feels like playing. And so forth. At least Kinfolk usually get some of the setup explained to them and most tribes look after their basic needs.
  • It bugs me that people focus on the "Kinfolk = baby-making" bit and act like they do nothing else. They're the only way the Garou could interact with the normal world considering that a Garou's rage scares away humans and runs the risk of them suddenly flipping out and going homocidal. Not to mention kinfolk frequent act as guards, medics, babysitters, drivers, lawyers, etc. etc. for the Garou, yet people still focus on the baby making part.
    • Because that's a logical fallacy. All the good in the world doesn't mean we have to ignore the really screwed-up parts. They're still there.
      • Except I'm not talking about ignoring that part, I'm talking about how there are plenty of people who act as if that's the only thing kinfolk do, like they spent 24/7 being studs/breeding mares. It's not a logical fallacy since I'm not saying to ignore that part, I'm saying people should regonise they do so much more for the Garou than that.
          • You're confusing a hang-up for over generalizing. Nobody is going to doubt that the Kinfolk have numerous purposes that make them both an attractive addition to the setting and add a bit more of a human angle to the world. But people get hung up on the fact that Werewolves essentially have love bunnies they can force to do whatever they basically want if they so damn well choose. When it boils down to brass tacks Kinfolk are basically there to provide a viable method for Werewolves to breed. It's like getting mad that people fixate on ghouls only being used to protect vampires during the day.
  • The idea that lupus are completely unaware how to do anything other than be a wolf when they start play. The biggest headscratch is that even some books assume lupus just go through their rite of passage right after their shift without being taught anything but the bare basics. Don't most tribes spent YEARS teaching the cubs and waiting until they are ready for their Rite? Hence why you basic homid shifts at 14, but starts play at 16-17. Also, the rules state that lupus CAN buy stats like etiquette and computer with freebies, so it can be assumed they get some basic education. Besides, aside from Talons, the Nation would not let a potential veil breach join a tribe unless they were sure it could fake it.
    • The whole mess of Lupus Garou not to mention tons of psychological knowledge in the real world about how children raised as feral or by animals fit into human society (spoilers:not very damn well) is probably why this aspect was rightfully excised in the New World of Darkness. They could have side-stepped this issue, I think, by simply stating that wolves in the Old World of Darkness were actually sentient and linguistic creatures who had been hiding their nature from humans (think Wolf's Rain) but they didn't.
      • Um, it is stated that Lupus Garou are always ahead of the curve compared to their non-Garou kin, so it's essential a wizard did it.
      • My issue wasn't about wether or not they should be smart, it's that given it takes years to teach homid kids, we can assume lupus get the same treatment. Yet they are most often assumed to know nothing, while the rules state they CAN.
        • This could be explained through any number of things. And using Freebie points to learn some of these skills won't turn them into an expert.
    • The fact that all Lupus have human beings somewhere in their family tree will never stop being horrifying.
  • Anyway what I want to address is the above poster that mentions pyschological knowledge. In the setting the newly changed Lupus Garou have one husge advantage over Feral Children in that like all Garou their able to speak the Garou Tongue from the get go. This is a massive advantage over Feral Children as their able to communicate with others. If you want to know more there's a TON of this kinda info in the Revised Red Talon book that pretty much addresses a lot of Lupus Questions. And yeah I'm pissed off they were cut from the New World of Darkness Books. Them and Metis.
    • The books do assume lupus get supernatural boosts to their adaptation to the garou/human culture. Lupus seem quite able to adapt to human culture,if they so desire and want.
    • You mean the Angst Babies? Wasn't sorry to see them go either.
      • Oh, so you prefer murderous foetus ghosts? Oh yeah, much better...
    • I am fairly certain that Lupus don't know the Garou tongue from the getgo. It's stated quite clearly that the language was created by the Fianna and you learn it during your training.
      • No, the fianna cultivated it, but every garou knows the basic words from it, because of their ancestral heritage. Skill to speak fluently in it could be said to be result of training.
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